Gumiho vs Soo

Poor soO.



You play Zerg, you get burned. Unless you're Life, then you go to prison instead.



Interesting how you're feeling sorry for yourself harder than Soo is. They played a best of 5 like a week ago and Gumiho just demolished Soo 3-0. Zerg now is by far the easist. Kind of tired of hearing the whining.
Not to mention, Life fixed games and went to prison for that, I don't see how he's some how a victim here.



^^what?



I have to join #4 here, as I don't understand #3. #1 was just mentioning that soO lost yet another GSL finals (This is the 8th time). That has nothing to do with race or whining, it's just the person not able to grab infinite glory for the 8th time.

As for me, I was just making a joke on the whole thing and not trying to point anyone as a "victim". There's a lot of alien vs flamethrower stuff out there and I was just joking on that.

There are no victims, only winners and losers. Pro-gaming is a very harsh world and everyone that is one, knows its risks and rewards. There are no victims, no one said there was...

So again, I don't understand #3.



Anyone who claims imbalance in this game is at a lower level were imbalances exist. At the pro level the races are so closely balanced as to not even be worthy of consideration.

The issue here is not race, it is Soo, who has a mental block when it comes to GSL finals.



Imbalances do exist at the lower levels. But all the data points to Zerg being the easiest once you've gotten out of the bronze to gold area.
I wasn't disagreeing with you, Xen. I can definitely feel bad for Soo. He's been a very top notch player and always looks amazing right up into the finals. He might need some kind of sports psychologist intervention. Gumiho's style is very innovative and was super difficult for him to adapt to I think.



"All the data points to Zerg being the easiest once you've gotten out of the bronze to gold area."

No such data exist. The difficulty of playing a particular race is extremely subjective and no reputable scientific study has ever been attempted in order to measure that.

You can have your opinion and that's fine, but when you start talking about how data back up your opinion then you should be prepared to pull that data out from somewhere other than your ass.



The size of the leagues comparatively to the number of players in that league as well as surveys they conducted asking a large sample size what the hardest/easiest races were at lower levels (bronze to gold - Zerg hardest), medium levels (platinum to masters - Terran hardest), and GM to pro level (Protoss). In both the upper levels, Zerg was widely considered by far the easiest.
So, yes. Really data. Not to mention every caster has said it at least once in the past year. If, however, you've played Zerg since like 2010, no, Zerg was not always the easiest.



It would probably help what you're trying to define as hardest or easiest. Just overall win rate? least APM required? easiest to get a "scissors" to their "paper"? Something else?

Because I'm sure most of us here can agree that one race has an easier time than another for APM, or one that always has good answers, or one with the best "lategame" potential etc.


Let us make one thing very clear however. If one race was scientifically proven to offer the highest winrate in top-tier tournaments(Not talking about 1% differences here, there needs to be a good margin), all pro players would play that race.

Because whether you like it or not, they're competitive as fuck and "gimping" yourself for picking a weaker race than the "scientically proven best race" is like breaking a finger when starting a world tournament for table tennis.


Besides, if it ever gets scientifically proven (I think only very advanced neural network AI could do that give or take 5-10 years and a big budget like Deepmind), then Blizzard would bring out a balance patch to put it within an acceptable margin anyways.



Yeah. Yeah irenmostly right. At the pro level things are pretty balanced I'd say. Even if they're not balanced at my particular league, balance isn't the reason I haven't gotten into GM. I might get a couple more wins, but definitely not get to GM level. Those guys are always a storm of keys and precise clicking I honestly can't compete with.



If it helps, the current pros only reached that level because they practiced a lot over the course of many years.

I mean, take it a little bit into perspective. Look back at the start of Wings of Liberty. The pros of that time already had high APM (Because of SC1 and of course other RTS games) but in terms of understanding the game it was pitiful compared to the pro players these days.

If you'd compare it fairly, I'd say the absolute best players back in early WoL (Say, the first 6 months or year (There wasn't even a GM rank back then)) would likely reach only a high diamond level these days.

This is because people get better at games, and if you play the same game a lot (Even though SC2 changed a lot, it also stayed the same in terms of familiarity) you can reach levels a normal player would deem unachievable.

Take a very difficult game for example, Dark Souls. You will die a lot and not understand a lot of the mechanics and what enemies do (Best you can do is predict when they'll attack because of irregular movements). But look how much better you can get at it in just a week, or even 24 hours.

Now imagine playing a very difficult game (SC2) and then play it 12-16 hours a day 6-7 days a week, and have practice partners and - in Korea until recently - even a coach. Do that over the span of 3-5-7 years and you can do things people would consider you a god (A literal god, Tasteless!)


It's also important to note is that pretty much no one, not even a god-level professional gamer can keep results for many years straight. TY, Innovation, Zest, Life; these are all names people deemed untouchable at some point in their career, and while some of them still perform really really well, they can't consistently win tournaments, although Innovation is getting pretty close.


There's only one being in the world right now that transcends these "general rules of thumb" and that veritable deity only goes by the name: Lee "Flash" Young Ho. Even though he didn't win absolutely every SC1 tournament since he participated, he's shown that he can win tournaments over and over again even over a timespan of 12 years, get back into it and win 3 friggin tournaments in a row.

Okay that was enough of a rant. I just had to camouflage the post to praise the only literal progaming god we have.



^Are all coaches and coaching done now because of the disbanding of Kespa teams? Is GSL and SSL the only premier korean tournements now?



^Yes and Yes.

I think the only exception might be Splyce, which is an american e-sports team which does coaching for other games (EU LCS for example, League of Legends) but I am not able to find any such information if the same is done for the Pro's in Splyce that are playing Starcraft 2, such as Stats and Solar. I would assume not, but that may be inaccurate.

If Splyce indeed DOES coach their SC2 players, it is an exception to the rule nowadays, because as you said, the Kespa teams disbanded.

It is worth noting that WESG, while not Korean, is definitely a top tier premier league in which Koreans participate, but so far this has only happened once (Introduction was this year). WESG has a high prize pool just like other premier tournaments.



I feel that soO losing here is attributed too much to some kind of mental block. I haven't seen any evidence of a mental block; he played as strongly during the finals as he has throughout the tournament. He did not make any glaring or unusual mistakes, and was unafraid to take risks up to the very end.

Imho soO was simply outclassed by GuMiho, not just in the finals but during the entire tournament. GuMiho played better than soO in every single round; he was on fire the entire tournament, and he played the games of his life. While soO played strongly and solidly, as he usually does, there was nothing truly spectacular about it. His road to the finals was even somewhat fortunate, with him getting favorable matchups every step of the way.

In short, I feel that the best player won. GuMiho played incredible and innovative games, showcasing a whole new style of Terran that is uniquely his. I love soO, but GG GuMiho! You deserve it!



Ditto Lambal


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